Talossan Elections, and a Micronationalist International

[DCrov]

Hello all,

As you will have read in the Micronational News section, the general elections in the Republic of Talossa did not go so well for my party, the ZRT. (Our party blog is http://zrtblog.blogspot.com). It was the party of your old friend D.N. Vercaria, the MRP, that in fact won a majority, and he hasn't stopped gloating since Wink

http://www.micro-nations.com/viewtopic.php?t=1122

In the event, an ex-Seneschal has to find something to do with his time. I am still Leader of the Opposition in our parliament. I am going on at great length about this because a) its an interesting subject-a peaceful and genuine transfer of power in a micronation; and b) I would like to try and make contact with political leaders of a like mind to exchange experiences and perhaps give each other a hand. You could call it the Micronationalist International.

The ZRT is a strongly nationalistsic party that is fairly fundamentalist on the subject of Talossan national culture. It is also dogmatically republican (with a small r) and economically left-wing. Whats your party like and what kind of impact have you had on your micronation?

D

[Peter]

I have no party but as the election is completed I'd like to put a question.

As a person interested in political systems I wonder whether the specific offensive style of communication between talossan political actors during the election is the part of a game (= ironic, made for fun) or whether it is real (= meant as offence and/or means of real political struggle).

No offence and nothing against republicanism, I am just curious... Thank you

[la garçâ malpadert]

As a person interested in political systems I wonder whether the specific offensive style of communication between talossan political actors during the election is the part of a game (= ironic, made for fun) or whether it is real (= meant as offence and/or means of real political struggle).

We're not offensive. You're just too sensitive. ;-)

Seriously, I understand the question. The answer is that all Talossan politicians are friends - friends who get on each other's nerves sometimes, but friends nonetheless. What you must remember is that Talossan elections (in the Republic, at least) are not for silly fun and pomp. They are real political struggles about the future of our nation. If - for example - Defencists unleash some cutting sarcasm against Peculiarists, it is neither for fun, nor meant to hurt our fellow-citizens. It is because we fundamentally disagree with the Peculiarist philosophy and want to subject it to merciless, gruelling scrutiny.

It's a fine line to walk, between real political struggle and upsetting our friends. I think usually we stay on the correct side of that line. In contrast, many of us look with disdain on those nations where there seems to be a "compulsory niceness" law in effect. That of course doesn't do away with personal or political struggle - it just drives it underground and makes it petty, cloak-and-dagger stuff.

[Dieter N. Vercáriâ]

I agree to many of the assessments of my friends from the other political bank of the river.

One funny thing about the rivalry of the leading parties in the Republic of Talossa is that they often like to pick up the loose ends of each other's genuine ideas, trying to improve these.

For example, before the recent election, my party, the MRP, was planning to enlarge the Peculiarist Internationale. While we of the MRP conviction won the election and have to be busy with keeping the motors of the nationette running now, the esteemed members of the new opposition are to be found hanging out here on MNO now, talking about a Micronationalist International, Cool idea!

So it goes in the Republic of Talossa, all people are trying to do what they can, and usually we don't bite, not even at each other, howsoever noisy our written speech may occasionally "sound".  :wink:

[DCrov]

I should point out that turnout was at 75%, and we had the ighest number of voters we've ever had (21), so whatever we are doing we seem to be doing it right.

I wonder though what other micronational political systems are like-are they more or less for fun or do they take real decisions?

[Peter]

Thanks for all replies.

I should point out that turnout was at 75%, and we had the ighest number of voters we've ever had (21), so whatever we are doing we seem to be doing it right.

This seems to be true.

I wonder though what other micronational political systems are like-are they more or less for fun or do they take real decisions?

I would assume micronations in general (except of those made clearly for fun) go near the variations of consensual / consociation model. Thus real decisions with something like common spirit. I have no example data so I am interested in other people's answers, too...

On the other hand, when the parties have much in common it is probably the legitimate outcome that they try to mark out their sectors in "details".

[zdan meknutor]

Whats your party like and what kind of impact have you had on your micronation?

there are no political parties in ark maramia. a) in four people in would be laughable to have political parties and b) direct democracy is the key in arkian community, cos ark is semi-closed society; to became arkian is as difficult as to became jew or hindu, that's what make us little bit different form classical micronations (and we reflect it in calling us microethnic).

political parties have their role in "over-sized" societies, sociologists say, that representative democracy is effective with community of 250 and more citizens. bellow this level, direct democracy is the most effective way of administration, if we do not count the enlightened absolutism, which the most effective system ever existing. problems are with these enlightened monarchs, they are rare as (real) saffron; you just find tons of this cheap (turkish) saffron/monarchs, which only makes your meal yellow, but that's all...  :wink:

[Dieter N. Vercáriâ]

The esteemed r is often saying something along the lines that it's diffifcult to direct micronationalists into one particular direction; having political parties in mid-size micro-nations like the Republic of Talossa may do the trick to generate some basical group dynamic as the "glue" that will keep a representative government in one.

I once preferred to give up on the party system and have personality elections in Penguinean style (STV voting system and all that) instead, but in the mean time I think that this could lead to a parliament of egos who don't really get around to get things done. Political parties convey the spirit of teamwork, at least that's what I like to believe.

As for direct democracy, I agree that in very small groups political parties may be a joke, as long as individuals just pretend to be a party. On the other hand, one-man nations and one-man parties may be the starting point of a developement towards florishing groups and nationettes... this is, in fact, the dream behind every new foundation of micronations and micronational organisations.

But I digress; choosing direct democracy as a form of government will be a matter of which way a micronation is wanting to go. If there is the pretense of being something like a real nation state,  only in small size, there is no way away from a system of government that rules by proxies,  i.e., some sort of a representative parliamentarian system, because event the smallest of the big role models (like, e.g., San Marino) may be far too big (geographically, at least) for applying direct democracy. If a micronation might want to model a Classical Greek polis, though, direct democracy might be an appropriate choice. So here's an decided "it depends".

Okay, that much for now...

[zdan meknutor]

having political parties in mid-size micro-nations like the Republic of Talossa may do the trick to generate some basical group dynamic as the "glue" that will keep a representative government in one.

makes perfect sense, although Republic of Talossa might be built up with a perspective of having lots of citizens

I once preferred to give up on the party system and have personality elections in Penguinean style (STV voting system and all that) instead, but in the mean time I think that this could lead to a parliament of egos who don't really get around to get things done. Political parties convey the spirit of teamwork, at least that's what I like to believe.

depends quite a lot on a quality of your electorate. to asure you about the outcome, party system is as good as sexual propagation. evolution biologists found very few reasons why sexual propagation is so favoured among organisms; the cruacial seems to be the averaging of outcome, so to say, to cut down the extremes. of course being second to that sex is fun (sometimes).

On the other hand, one-man nations and one-man parties may be the starting point of a developement towards florishing groups and nationettes... this is, in fact, the dream behind every new foundation of micronations and micronational organisations.

yes the size growth may be the goal of many new micronations. for them even one-man party might be fine, but only as they grow. if they have any limitations (set or long term co-incidental), direct democracy may be the choice.  

yes, even San Marino, Andorra or Liechtenstein are far to big/large for direct democracy. DD is a game, which can be played in a quite wrong way, as any other game. DD must be intetion of the population, not something casted from heavens of wise-men.

[Dieter N. Vercáriâ]

When Talossa was founded, it has been a one-citizen-monarchy.

And the MRP, which is now the leading party in the Republic of Talossa, also entered the political scene as a one-man-party.  :wink:

[la garçâ malpadert]

I once preferred to give up on the party system and have personality elections in Penguinean style (STV voting system and all that) instead, but in the mean time I think that this could lead to a parliament of egos who don't really get around to get things done. Political parties convey the spirit of teamwork, at least that's what I like to believe.

This is of course exactly the reason why I pushed for a party-based electoral system since the first month of the Republic. (As opposed to the old "blank cheque for party leaders" system of the pre-Revolutionary Kingdom.) In any case, this shows that the Talossan Republic's knock-down-drag-out style of political argument does - in the long run - tend towards broad consensus, in an almost perfect example of the Hegelian dialectic triad.

[Sogoln yg Ysca]

Can any of you explain in a few words what are the different ideologies of your political parties?

[Dieter N. Vercáriâ]

In a very few words, the Defencists (ZRT) claim to be defenders of traditions and the heritage of Talossa. The Peculiarsts (MRP), especially in their beginning, but still, take a radical democratic stand ("power to the people").

An example for this difference: the constitutional approach to Presidential elections. Simply put, you're not eligible to Presidency if you don't fulfill a couple of conditions. You can't run in Presidential elections unless you've either been a citizen for 3 years, of if you have been serving in certain offices for some defined time. The ZRT likes to keep this up, saying that they don't want to see "immigrants fresh from the landing pier" become elected the President of the Republic. The MRP says, let's ditch these requirements, because the electors in their wisdom will know how to vote with responsibility. They will never elect an inexperienced greenhorn into the office of the head of the state; constitutional assumptions about the quality of candidates are unneccessary and even misguiding.

Other points of difference:  The Defencists would, at least theoretically, accept a form of constitutional monarchy in case of a reunion of the Talossas, the staunchly republican MRP would not. The Defencists spent a lot of efforts on negotiating official relationsships to the Kingdom of Talossa, the MRP will not. It's not that we don't care, but we think that the people themselves (power to them, remember!  :wink: ) will find ways to cooperation and friendship, if they want cooperation and friendship. Grassroot moves toward this are happening in the Province of Cezembre - there's precedence of what the MRP is hoping for, and what the MRP will encourage.

I'll stop now. I hope I treated the ZRT fair, and I hope their supporters wll correct me if I made a mistake or came up with a wrong quote or allegation. We're not here on MNO to find a new stage for our rivarly... debating in red hot atmosphere, that's what we prefer to do at home, on the forums of the Republic, but usually the atmosphere is red hot only during election campaigns.  

[Peter]

Thank you for the overview!

[J]

Has any political party in Talossa ever requested  independent "inter-micro-national" observers to monitor elections in Talossa?